(no subject)

[zorilleerrant]

 sometimes people make a solid point about "women and nonbinary people" being used as a category

and then they have to go tack on some random misogyny

like not all nbs are afab! not all nbs are androgynous or feminine! not all nbs present female!

but that's no excuse to add on something that really sounds better left to a "women are oppressing men by not fucking them" argument

Comments

[bushwah]

This is a familiar set of issues (misogyny, binarism, anti-binarism running into misogyny, anti-misogyny that veers into binarism) but I can't tell from this post what positions you're taking on it

[zorilleerrant]

I'm not really taking any stances in this post, I'm just upset that people don't bother to check whether they're using sexist loaded phrases.

In general, I think non-men is sometimes a useful category of analysis, but in general it's not meaningful, because for the most part things aren't actually about whether or not people are men, they are actually about men v. women, because society isn't constructed with nbs in mind. If that's not what people are talking about, they're probably better off using masculine-coded and feminine-coded which aren't necessarily attached to gender at all. Or else even feminists/anti-feminists or something.

But people don't like to admit that sometimes men experience misogyny and sometimes women have more access to privilege than other women (say, when using pen names) or that everything is very messy and confusing. Because society totally has cruel hangups about gender, but also sex, presentation, hobbies and interests, jobs, friend groups, personalities, mannerisms and ways of speaking, and anything else you could plausibly say 'men x but women y' in any context. (Like even dogs v. cats.)

Personally, I think any group where 'only x allowed' is most likely going to be generally abusive and not particularly helpful, as opposed to groups where 'this group talks about x' or 'this group organizes for x issue' or something. Because people don't have the same issues or interests just because they have the same label.

But generally: if you say nbs are welcome in your group and then don't welcome nbs, that's absolutely nbphobic, but if you complain about that using sexist language you're undercutting your own point by being a douche, and also being nbphobic (to feminine/afab nbs, I wasn't clear on the point exactly).

I'm not sure if that answers your question at all.